Camping Merit Badge- 20 Nights Needed

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Camping Merit Badge- 20 Nights Needed

Postby wizard of oz » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:14 am

The following is taken from the requirement from the camping merit badge in regards to how many nights is needed to camp:

"Show experience in camping by doing the following:
Camp a total of at least 20 days and nights. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded). "


Here is the question. Does the entire 20 days need to be done with the troop, or can some of the days be done with family? The SM will not include any camping time with the family. Any official opinions on this one? :?:
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Postby maricopasem » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:32 am

The requirement says nothing about the troop. A boy should be able to use any camping experience that meets the criteria towards the requirement, regardless of the people with whom he is camping.

Your SM is wrong.
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Postby Mrw » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:11 am

Besides, the SM doesn't decide if the requirements are met, the MBC does.
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Postby PaulSWolf » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:20 pm

Mak sure you're also using the CURRENT requirements. The one in question now reads
Camp a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent.

And as others have suggested, if BSA intended that only camping with the troop be counted, it would have worded the requirement something like this:
Camp a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights with your troop or patrol. ...

As long as you meet the other part of the requirement (i.e. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched.) your MB Counselor should count the camping. And if the counselor is registered as a camping MB Counselor, and approves your completion of the badge, the SM may not deny the advancement.
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Re: Camping Merit Badge- 20 Nights Needed

Postby evmori » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:47 pm

wizard of oz wrote:The following is taken from the requirement from the camping merit badge in regards to how many nights is needed to camp:

"Show experience in camping by doing the following:
Camp a total of at least 20 days and nights. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded). "


Here is the question. Does the entire 20 days need to be done with the troop, or can some of the days be done with family? The SM will not include any camping time with the family. Any official opinions on this one? :?:


It is up to the MB counselor.
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Postby 616kayak » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:37 pm

Counselors may not add or subtract from the requirements.
The requirements only ask the scout to camp for 20 nights. They do not ask for him to do it with a certain group. That would be adding to the requirements.

For ranks you must have troop leadership. To allow leadership in school clubs would be just as much subtracting as saying "in scouts only" would be adding.
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Postby pipestone1991 » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:46 am

Mrw wrote:Besides, the SM doesn't decide if the requirements are met, the MBC does.


Maybe the SM is teaching the MB.......when your an SM you're allowed to teach hiking,camping, and (I believe) swimming.
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Postby ASM-142 » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:48 am

pipestone1991 wrote:Maybe the SM is teaching the MB.......when your an SM you're allowed to teach hiking,camping, and (I believe) swimming.


Even a SM needs to be an approved MBC. Also there is no limit on the MB that a SM can be approved for.
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Postby pipestone1991 » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:23 am

ASM-142 wrote:
pipestone1991 wrote:Maybe the SM is teaching the MB.......when your an SM you're allowed to teach hiking,camping, and (I believe) swimming.


Even a SM needs to be an approved MBC. Also there is no limit on the MB that a SM can be approved for.


Accourding my SM, as SM you're automatically MBCs for those MBs.
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Postby PaulSWolf » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:43 am

pipestone1991 wrote:
Accourding my SM, as SM you're automatically MBCs for those MBs.


Your SM is wrong. Here is the official rule:

Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures: (emphasis added)

Qualifications of Counselors.

Persons serving as merit badge counselors must be registered as a merit badge counselor with the Boy Scouts of America. They must be men and women of good character, age 18 or older, and recognized as having the skills and education in the subjects for which they are to serve as merit badge counselors, as well as having the ability to work with Scout-age boys.

Register merit badge counselors by using the basic adult registration form. All merit badge counselors must be approved by the council advancement committee. Merit badge counselors are not required to pay a fee if they are only registered as merit badge counselors.

There is no restriction or limit on the number of merit badges an individual may be approved to counsel for, but they must be approved by the committee for each specific merit badge.

There is no limit on the number of merit badges a youth may earn from one counselor.

An approved merit badge counselor may counsel any youth member, including his or her own son, ward, or relative.
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Postby 616kayak » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:38 am

A little off topic but, there is a chance pipestone misunderstood his SM. He may have meant something along the lines of MOST SM's become a MBC for those merit badges.
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Postby scoutaholic » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:10 pm

PaulSWolf wrote:
pipestone1991 wrote:
Accourding my SM, as SM you're automatically MBCs for those MBs.


Your SM is wrong. Here is the official rule:

Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures: (emphasis added)

Qualifications of Counselors.

Persons serving as merit badge counselors must be registered as a merit badge counselor with the Boy Scouts of America. They must be men and women of good character, age 18 or older, and recognized as having the skills and education in the subjects for which they are to serve as merit badge counselors, as well as having the ability to work with Scout-age boys.

Register merit badge counselors by using the basic adult registration form. All merit badge counselors must be approved by the council advancement committee. Merit badge counselors are not required to pay a fee if they are only registered as merit badge counselors.

There is no restriction or limit on the number of merit badges an individual may be approved to counsel for, but they must be approved by the committee for each specific merit badge.

There is no limit on the number of merit badges a youth may earn from one counselor.

An approved merit badge counselor may counsel any youth member, including his or her own son, ward, or relative.




There may be some confusion here because of a local policy. Our Council Advancement Guidelines (http://gslc-bsa.org/advancement.cfm) contractradict parts of the national policy listed above.
...

A Scout should not use one merit badge counselor for more than three merit badges each year.

...

Camping, cooking, and hiking occur as a natural part of the troop program; therefore, the Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster may serve as counselors for these badges. However, merit badge counseling is not the normal function of the Scoutmaster.

Parents may pass their son on home repairs and family life merit badges.

...
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Postby wagionvigil » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:17 pm

Concil or troop policies CANNOT override National Policies!
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Postby scoutaholic » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:27 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Concil or troop policies CANNOT override National Policies!


I don't think the council cares if they CAN override the national policy. They just DO.
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Postby wagionvigil » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:42 pm

All a kid has to do is appeal that to National. Guess What? The COuncil will loose.
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Postby summertop » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:03 am

Edited for Spelling errors.

scoutaholic wrote:
wagionvigil wrote:Concil or troop policies CANNOT override National Policies!


I don't think the council cares if they CAN override the national policy. They just DO.



I am in the Great Salt Lake Council. Here is the very first line of the GSLC Advancement Policy:
We support the National Advancement Policy of the boy Scouts of America as contained in the National Advancement Guidelines.


In one of the Round Table sessions, we discussed this. The concesus was, it (my district) recommended that the SM does not sign off on more than two required MB's per boy per year. Elective MB's they didn't care. I will have to talk to the other round table staff about this.
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Postby mhjacobson » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:37 pm

"A Scout should not use one merit badge counselor for more than three merit badges each year.

...

Camping, cooking, and hiking occur as a natural part of the troop program; therefore, the Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster may serve as counselors for these badges. However, merit badge counseling is not the normal function of the Scoutmaster. "

I just like English. There are two important wordings here:

A Scout should -- 'should' is not an imparative, it is a recommendation. If it was an imparative it would be 'MUST' or 'MAY NOT.'

A Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster may -- 'may' is also not a qualifying adverb, it is a statement of allowance, but does not qualify the SM/ASM to do anything. They still would have to obtain their MB credentials to sign off on the requirements.

Many councils make statements of this type to state the allowance of troop leaders to be MB counselors. At one time there were some prohibitions to limit the ability of those who teach the skills to sign off on the skills that they have taught (where is the check and balance). However, due to the relative new requirements that require MB counselors to be registered and trained the pool of MB counselors has shrunk (remember the old days when you could simply go to a fire station for 'Firemanship,' a medical professional for 'First Aid, etc?) considerably, causing the need for local scouters to be MB counselors in some areas for those whom they are teaching and working with every week.

However, Counsels can not make rules that either loosen or tighten the requirements for scout advancement, including the issuance of MB. They are also under the NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS policies of the BSA.
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Postby pipestone1991 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:14 pm

scoutaholic wrote:
PaulSWolf wrote:
pipestone1991 wrote:
Accourding my SM, as SM you're automatically MBCs for those MBs.






...



Camping, cooking, and hiking occur as a natural part of the troop program; therefore, the Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster may serve as counselors for these badges. However, merit badge counseling is not the normal function of the Scoutmaster.



...


This is what our council policy is.
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Postby mhjacobson » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:18 pm

Unfortunately that is NOT BSA policy. All individuals who desire to serve as MB counselors MUST take the training and register.

This is similar to the policy that states that SM & ASM must take IOLS before they can take the troop camping, etc.
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Postby WVBeaver05 » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:39 pm

mhjacobson wrote:Unfortunately that is NOT BSA policy. All individuals who desire to serve as MB counselors MUST take the training and register.

This is similar to the policy that states that SM & ASM must take IOLS before they can take the troop camping, etc.

Can you cite the policy for these?

I certainly don't disagree with either, but I have not found them.

For MBC, must submit adult application and be registered (no fee, if MBC only) and must submit MBC application as well. Then must be approved by District/Council. I know that there is a MBC training module, but I have never heard that it was required.

Same with the IOLS. I know that BALOO is required for Cub overnight camps.

Our Council is strongly supportive of training and if you can provide the reference, I can discuss this at a training meeting this month.

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