Camping MB, Requirement 9 (a) Interpretation

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Postby JVCXXVI » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:21 pm

Our troop goes to summer camp for 7 days 6 nights and sets their our tents up. This happens every year. Would you count the 7 days 6 nights every year or only once towards the 20?
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Postby DadScout » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:34 pm

The summer camp would only count once. You'd apply the 6-7 days to the 20 total and then do the remaining 14-13 need from overnights/weekends.
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Postby JazerNorth » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:09 pm

JVCXXVI wrote:Our troop goes to summer camp for 7 days 6 nights and sets their our tents up. This happens every year. Would you count the 7 days 6 nights every year or only once towards the 20?

I would count every single summer camp towards the 20.

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Postby PaulSWolf » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:27 pm

JazerNorth wrote:
JVCXXVI wrote:Our troop goes to summer camp for 7 days 6 nights and sets their our tents up. This happens every year. Would you count the 7 days 6 nights every year or only once towards the 20?

I would count every single summer camp towards the 20.

JazerNorth


Requirement 9a reads
Camp a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent.


Note the line "You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement.". ONLY ONE week of summer camp may be counted toward the 20 days and nights. The balance must be short term campouts.
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Postby JazerNorth » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:14 pm

I have a tough time believing that is what is really meant. Here is why: On every requirement that the intended number be one, the requirement specifically says one. Example 4a and e of First Class. In 4a, you can cook for many patrols at once, yet it uses a before patrol. Also in 4e, it says one before campout, meaining that they only need to do that requirement once at one campout.

So, 'a' can mean one in some contexts, but I find it really hard to believe that it means only one long-term campout. If someone goes to Philmont 3 years in a row, according to the above, only one of the weeks would count. Yet they had a harder camping experience than a scout who goes on many 1 or 2 nighters. I have boys that only attend summer camp, not because that is all they want to do, but that is all they have time to do. They earned the camping merit badge just as well as those who camp througout the year.

That should be it for now.
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Postby JVCXXVI » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:20 pm

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who reads this requirement and comes up with different ways to interupt it. I'm leaning towards counting everyday they ever goto summer camp.
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Postby evmori » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:16 pm

JazerNorth wrote:I have a tough time believing that is what is really meant. Here is why: On every requirement that the intended number be one, the requirement specifically says one. Example 4a and e of First Class. In 4a, you can cook for many patrols at once, yet it uses a before patrol. Also in 4e, it says one before campout, meaining that they only need to do that requirement once at one campout.

So, 'a' can mean one in some contexts, but I find it really hard to believe that it means only one long-term campout. If someone goes to Philmont 3 years in a row, according to the above, only one of the weeks would count. Yet they had a harder camping experience than a scout who goes on many 1 or 2 nighters. I have boys that only attend summer camp, not because that is all they want to do, but that is all they have time to do. They earned the camping merit badge just as well as those who camp througout the year.

That should be it for now.


"A" means one. The requirement is quite clear. A (one) week of long term camping is all that can be used. Yeah there are many things the BSA doesn't define clearly, but this isn't one of them.
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Postby JazerNorth » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:32 pm

evmori wrote:Yeah there are many things the BSA doesn't define clearly, but this isn't one of them.


Obviously it is, or there wouldn't be a discussion about it. So, yeah, the BSA isn't clear on this one and it is left up to interpretation. Oh, and 'a' doesn't always mean one. It generally means one at a time, but not specifically one. See answers.com, webster.com, a dictionary to get a true definition of 'a'.

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Postby scoutaholic » Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:12 am

JazerNorth wrote:
evmori wrote:Yeah there are many things the BSA doesn't define clearly, but this isn't one of them.


... Oh, and 'a' doesn't always mean one. It generally means one at a time...
JazerNorth


If you take the wording of the requirement as literal, then you can count a week long camp. (One at a time as you suggested. I guess you can count a week long camp for his 2nd camping MB, and another week long for his 3rd camping MB as well.)

I have never worried about taking this literally, and have never had to, because the boys tend to have plenty of weekend camps for the rest. However, the wording looks pretty clear to me that they can only count one week long camp in their 20 nights.
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Postby evmori » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:43 am

JazerNorth wrote:
evmori wrote:Yeah there are many things the BSA doesn't define clearly, but this isn't one of them.


Obviously it is, or there wouldn't be a discussion about it. So, yeah, the BSA isn't clear on this one and it is left up to interpretation. Oh, and 'a' doesn't always mean one. It generally means one at a time, but not specifically one. See answers.com, webster.com, a dictionary to get a true definition of 'a'.

JazerNorth


This is just like Clinton asking to define is. Totally absurd.

"You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement.".

A week for this requirement. You can use another week for another requirement but not this one! Simple! Straightforward! A!
Last edited by evmori on Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby wagionvigil » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:58 am

Paul Answered the Question Correctly One week is it all other camping is short term.You can interpret all you want but if you contact national they will say one week is all that you can count!
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Postby ASM-142 » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:01 am

JazerNorth wrote:
JVCXXVI wrote:Our troop goes to summer camp for 7 days 6 nights and sets their our tents up. This happens every year. Would you count the 7 days 6 nights every year or only once towards the 20?

I would count every single summer camp towards the 20.

JazerNorth

If you follow this logic then after attending 3 summecamps a scout can earn camping merit badge even though he has never gone another camping trip, pitched his own tent, or cooked his own food.
This is not right.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
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Postby Mad Dog » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:57 am

This is one badge that should get rewritten to clarify these issues. We just had one boy earn the MB. The councelor allowed him to include a few nights of "family" camping where he setup his own tent etc. The SM questioned the boy about why he had earned the badge saying he did not have enought nights camping with the troop. We had to remind the SM that it is not up to him but up to the councelor and to basicly stop badgering the boy about it. The SM even went as far as having his wife sit on the boy's BOR and give him a hard time about it.
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Postby molscouter » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:36 am

I would count Philmont or Northrn Tier as separate nights. The boys are physically moving from place to place each day. That to me is not a long term camp. Summer camp is a long term camp.

Our troop does give one exception on the second (or more) summer camp. The Astronomy merit badge involves a 4-hour star gazing session. At our local camp, this generally means the boys bring their sleeping bags and sleep under the stars, so we will count 1 night towards the 20 for this.
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Postby JazerNorth » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:59 am

We have a summer camp here that the boys cook all of their own meals. The food is provided, but they have to cook it. Plus the requirement doesn't say they have to cook their own food. It just says they have to pitch their own tent (except at a long-term camp). What if they went camping with a father for 1 week, the scout participated and cooked their own food. Would you count that? Would you count it if they did it 3 times in one year, or once each year for 3 years? I would. I would say that the scout camped 6 days each time for a total of 18 nights.

JazerNorth

PS Ed -- Quit yelling at me. I didn't offend you in anyway and am trying to show why I think I am right.
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Postby evmori » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:13 pm

Summer camp is long term camping. Going on a one week camping trip with your brother where you pitch your own tent isn't long term camping and could be counted.

Not yelling. Just trying to help you define a.
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Postby JVCXXVI » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:16 pm

Well it looks and sounds like half think yes and half think no.
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Postby gwd-scouter » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:38 am

Gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that this shouldn't be such a hotly debated issue.

If a troop is running a good outdoor program, with campouts every month, then the 20 nights of camping requirement is easily done, even if you don't count ANY week of long term camp.

Why such a rush to finish camping merit badge? Our Scouts are started on the badge the day they join the troop and counter begins on their nights. Most of them have completed the nights in their first year, definately by their second if they are active with the troop. But, we've also had Scouts that were not quite as active and it may have taken them 3-4 years to complete the badge. As it is only ONE of the Eagle required badges, there is no reason that it must be completed early in a Scout's career.

Scouts should be learning how to camp, how to use stoves, going on hikes, how to backpack, plan float trips, safety, and all the other requirements for camping merit badge. They should become proficient at camping, not just tick off nights to satisfy that ONE requirement for the badge.


If you feel that you must look for loopholes or are constantly questioning what type of campouts fill the 20 days for your Scouts, then maybe your program isn't up to what it should be.
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Postby JVCXXVI » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:03 am

I wouldn't think that doing a summer camp once a year (7 days / 6 nights) for 4 years to get the 20 is a "rush to finish".
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Postby deweylure » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:36 am

The requirement does not even state camp with your troop for the 20 nights. In my opinion going family camping is ok. I had a boy go backpacking for 1 month each year plus the scout camping this boy made it in his first year.

If the requirement is causing this much confusion plaease write national andask them to clarify it the next time they review the badge.

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