swimming and Lifesaving

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Should Swimming And Lifesaving be required with no alternates except for extreme cases?

Yes
19
58%
No
14
42%
not sure
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 33

swimming and Lifesaving

Postby wagionvigil » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:17 pm

I was an Eagle when Swimming and lifesaving were required with NO OPTIONAL Merit Badges. I am still a firm beliver in this except for those scouts that have a Physical or mental Disability. So answer the poll and we will see what you all think.
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Postby scubascout » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:46 pm

I agree with wagionvigil, both should be required along with emergency preparednss. They should both be required unless he is really afraid of the water or he has mental or physical disibilites
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Postby RWSmith » Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:18 pm

I believe all three (Swimming, Lifesaving and Emergency Prep.) should be required for Eagle.

Disclaimer, sort of: I admit my bias; I got all three of these MBs at SC, and taught all three at SC.
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Postby cballman » Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:27 pm

I voted yes. the reason why is that I beleive that every scout that has the goal of Eagle need to posses the skills. the same as saying that we need to just throw out First Aid merit badge as being required. I personaly dont think so. these are sklills and life long ones at that. I beleive that these skills will help out the scout in life not just the knowledge but in knowing that he can overcome great odds that will show the scout that with proper training that he can do anything. the part about in an above post said that a scout with a fear of water could be bypassed IMHO I dont think so. but thats just me.
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Postby coneyraven » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:53 pm

Call me old fashioned, but I believe that the swimming MB should be a requirement in order to take lifesaveing....the way it used to be whe I was younger
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Postby WVBeaver05 » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:08 pm

I vote YES, but that was the way it was when I earned mine.

I believe that these are essential skills for a Scout and should be required to be an Eagle Scout. Both have a component of "...physically strong...". I haven't looked at the requirements lately, but when I took them "...Brave..." certainly figured into it as well.

I would not be inclined to exempt someone who had a fear of the water.

That's my vote, and my opinion.

YiS
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Postby WeeWillie » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:31 pm

The water is kind of cold in Alaska and frequently absent in AZ, NM....
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Postby wagionvigil » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:48 am

Fear of the water will not be approved to exempt some one from swimming requirements. If a unit trys this they should be over ruled by their Council Advancement Committee. You notice I used "should" as councils will do most anything to quiet a complaining parent. Just like the schools will.
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Postby coneyraven » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:54 am

Isn't that the truth---and it drives me completely nuts.....I can't even begin to tell you how many scouts I see with merit badges and rank advancements that you know they didn't derserve......that mommy did all the work for them.....
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Postby vpalango » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:16 am

I agree that these should be required as base skills any Eagle should have, short of a disability which prevents them.

The "fear of water" issue is a bit trickier, and in general I agree with those that say this shouldn't be a reason to be exempted, but we do need to live in today's world, and I don't think that would fly in practice.

The reality is that in a world where the ADA rules in many areas, phobias are legally (in many cases) a "disability". Again, we need to live in the world we have, whether we agree with it or not.

YIS,
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Postby coneyraven » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:22 am

You know, I must admit that you're right....but with that being said.....in todays world, should we consider making Disabilities Awareness and Eagle required badge.......perhaps, put it in as an alternate for those that, for whatever reason, can't complete some of the more physical required MB's.---Just the ramblings of a father of a son with Autism....
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Postby evmori » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:35 am

Yes by all means.
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Postby vpalango » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:55 am

coneyraven wrote:You know, I must admit that you're right....but with that being said.....in todays world, should we consider making Disabilities Awareness and Eagle required badge.......perhaps, put it in as an alternate for those that, for whatever reason, can't complete some of the more physical required MB's.---Just the ramblings of a father of a son with Autism....


I completely agree. I'm currently in the process of working with a perspective Eagle with a Disability, and the Disabilities Awareness MB to me is certainly a possible alternate in this situation.

Just as an editorial note (and this could spawn a whole new thread 8) ), I have learned tremendous respect recently for scouts who overcome disabilities, and to me, at the end of the day, an Eagle is made by showing his ability to overcome obstacles, and make the best of himself. For the (and I hate to use this term) mainstream scout, I still believe that things like Swimming/Lifesaving are required, as these are in my opinion core to the program, and to what a scout is. However, I feel that many eagles with disabilities are even more qualified as eagles than thier peers as they have SOOOO much more to overcome as part of thier journey.

At the end of the day. An Eagle is about character development, and growth. The program we provide does have a clear path, that provides a consistent measure of what an Eagle is. However, we do need to recognize that alternate paths are needed for some, and that doesn't lessen the program, it makes it more than it was before.

Just my thoughts.
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Postby RMM » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:00 pm

coneyraven wrote:Call me old fashioned, but I believe that the swimming MB should be a requirement in order to take lifesaveing....the way it used to be whe I was younger


Or both taken at the same time. Last year we had three scouts who are on competitive swim teams and all life guard at the city pool during the summer. They were unable to take lifesaving last year at camp as the camp director would not "allow it." So all boys completed the swimming badge and the life saving counselor did not have a class to teach during our session.

Decisions without evaluating the boys abilities are detremental to scouting. Needless to say, when choosing a camp for this summer, last year's camp was not viewed in a positive manner by the PLC for this very reason.

Unintended consequences?
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Postby Mad Dog » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:45 pm

I think it makes little sense to require a person with a disability to take disability awareness. The purpuse of the badge is to make "normally" abled individuals sensitive to the needs of those who are "differently" abled.
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Postby Quailman » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:02 pm

There are a lot of types of disabilities. My son, who has cerebral palsy, earned it at winter camp, and he learned quite a bit. Some of it might have been easier for him to understand, like spotting inadequacies in access at various facilities, but he deserves a break on at least one badge. Also, having him as part of the group working on the badge enriched the experience of the other boys.
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Postby Mrw » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:16 pm

I had a boy with CP in my second Cub den. It was great becasue he always tried his absolute hardest and that made all the others try harder too.

At a Webelos camp one summer, the rest of the group let this boy get on base and then steal a base while playing kickball. My den was all mad because they had gotten out and it had never accurred to them to "let" him win at something just because he used crutches or a wheelchair.

They had all learned to see the abilities rather than the disabilities. I don't know that it should be a required badge, but it is a good replacement for someone who cannot complete one of the physical activity badges.
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Postby evmori » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:39 am

Mad Dog wrote:I think it makes little sense to require a person with a disability to take disability awareness. The purpuse of the badge is to make "normally" abled individuals sensitive to the needs of those who are "differently" abled.


Huh???? Just because someone is disabled doesn't mean they are sensitive to others disabilities.
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:51 pm

OK lets get back to swimming and Lifesaving. If you wish to discuss DA start a new thread
Thankyou in advance
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Postby Quailman » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:10 pm

Okay, back on topic...

coneyraven wrote:Call me old fashioned, but I believe that the swimming MB should be a requirement in order to take lifesaveing....the way it used to be whe I was younger


The MB requirements change over time. There's not a lot of overlap between swimming and lifesaving, though both take place in the water. A lifeguard is probably not going to have to demonstrate good form in the sidestroke very often, for example. I would certainly expect that a person taking Lifesaving would want to earn Swimming also, but after the rank advancement swimming requirements, lifesaving teaches much more useful skills than swimming.

Swimming is a physical fitness activity, like hiking and cycling. I like that a boy has the option to take any of these three.

Fear of the water is something that needs to be overcome as part of acquiring the skill set that defines an Eagle Scout. If a boy can't pass the rank advancement requirements because he doesn't like swimming, well, he should think about other uses of his time. The second and first class requirements are there to get a boy to shore if he falls in the water, or to help out if another person falls in. This anyone should be able to do.

If he'd prefer not to advance his swimming ability beyond that, let him hike or ride a bike.
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