Camping MB Reqt 4b - Help a patrol ......

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Camping MB Reqt 4b - Help a patrol ......

Postby SDDan » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:39 pm

I have been wrestling with how to interpret Camping MB requirement 4b. I have discussed it with a couple Camping MB Counselors and the adult leaders within our troop, and have heard a range of interpretations. Some people have agreed with my interpretation, while others feel I am being overly strict. Here is the current text for requirement 4.

4. Do the following:
a. Make a duty roster showing how your patrol is organized for an actual overnight campout. List assignments for each member.
b. Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout, including creating the duty roster, menu planning, equipment needs, general planning, and setting up camp.

My interpretation is that in order to satisfy 4b a Scout must perform the tasks identified to help either a New Scout Patrol or a Webelos Den prepare for a campout. Other people have interpreted the requirement to allow the Scout to perform the preparation tasks for his own Patrol or any other Patrol in the troop.

Part of my concern is that if we allow Scouts to perform these tasks for their own patrol, then this is not significantly different from the rank requirements that cover preparation for a campout. However, the Camping MB requirement does not just reference the corresponding rank requirement, which leads me to believe that they are looking for something different.

The fact that 4a has the Scout prepare a duty roster for his own patrol would be redundant if he is allowed to prepare a duty roster for his own patrol in requirement 4b. Again, this leads me to feel that 4b should not be satisfied when a Scout prepares for a campout for his own patrol.

These campout preparation activities are covered during the patrol breakouts during our troop meetings. All members of the patrol participate in the campout planning. For existing patrols that have this process under control, I am not sure how much “help” they need from a Scout who is working on his Camping MB. This led me to my interpretation that it is a New Scout Patrol or a Webelos Den that would benefit the most from having a Scout help them with this campout planning process. It just seems to be an artificial exercise to have a Scout from Patrol A sit-in with Patrol B just to help them plan their campout, so he can satisfy this requirement.

Since, both 4a & 4b define preparation for an “actual” campout, would mean that just doing a paper exercise would not be acceptable.

I see the rank requirements as a foundation which prepares a Scout for more advanced subjects covered by the MBs. I am OK with interpreting the MB requirements to be more difficult than the rank requirements when it is appropriate. It seems appropriate to ask an experienced Scout to teach the campout preparation process to a less experienced patrol or den.

I am interested in hearing how other Camping MB Counselors have interpreted this requirement. I am open to relaxing my interpretation, and I would like to hear how others on the forum have handled this. Frankly, there are fewer opportunities for a Scout to fulfill this requirement if it must be with a New Scout Patrol or a Webelos Den.


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Postby FrankJ » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:18 pm

I would agree that 4B requires a webelos or new scout patrol. That could be problematic if your troop does not use new scout patrols & just seeds the new scouts in the regular patrols.

The opportunities in the troop would affect how tightly I interpreted this requirements while keeping in mind the intent.

Does anyone know how a lone scout would meet this requirement?
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Postby 9009scoutmaster » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:14 pm

b. Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout, including creating the duty roster, menu planning, equipment needs, general planning, and setting up camp.

As a Camping MB Counselor and SM of a small troop with only 13 youth, all under the age of 13. We cannot add to the requirements. Scout patrol is scout partol - THE REQUIREMENTS IS NOT NEW SCOUT PATROL. Theirfore it can be any scout patrol or OR Webelos Scout in your area.
Then the question is what is your area. Do we want to interpete that this has to be with another patrol with another troop in our area.
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Postby FrankJ » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:35 pm

I interpreted "scout patrol" from context to mean "scout" as in the non rank before tenderfoot. I guess other interpretations are possible. One of our older patrols are mostly eagles & life. Although a scout is kind, I don't think I would select them as a "scout patrol" to send some one working on 4B to help. :).

On a more serious note, I wouldn't have a problem letting 4B apply to helping new scouts in a existing patrol.
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Postby 9009scoutmaster » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:05 pm

From my earlier post, I will say I have no problem with your interpetation of the 4b requirement. A new scout patrol or Webelos Den would be the best learning experience for this requirement. But if this was the only way the 4b requirement was interpeted only the scout in the perfect scout troop would be able to meet this requirement if there is not a Webelos Den that would let him take on this responsibility. I feel like this requirement has to be interpeted in a way which is fair to the youth that is working on the Camping Merit Badge. The requirement says help which I would would interpete to mean lead the scout patrol or Webele den. This would be different than a interpetetion of just taking part in the planning of a actual campout.
As a SM do I want to have a new scout patrol? Yes I do. But it is not fair to the scouts of the troop that are working on the Camping Merit Badge to require them to work with a new scout patrol when there is not one available for them to work with.
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Postby FrankJ » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:52 pm

I agree completely 9009SM.
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Postby evmori » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:52 am

A Scout patrol is any Scout patrol, not just a new Scout patrol. So helping the Patrol the Scout is a member of would satisfy the requirement.

There are many MB requirements that mirror rank requirements.
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Postby FrankJ » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:51 am

A Scout patrol is any Scout patrol, not just a new Scout patrol. So helping the Patrol the Scout is a member of would satisfy the requirement.


So you could do the duty roster required in 4a along with the requirements in 4b? (if the scout was doing this with his own patrol.)

Reading 4b again. A scout should be doing this with his own patrol pretty much every camping trip. This requirement in meant to have a teaching & helping component. I can see making exceptions for small troops with only one patrol, but in general this requirement should be done with a patrol that actually needs the help.
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Postby Mrw » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:23 am

The way I see it - the duty roster in 4a shows how the boys own patrol is organized and is an academic exercise in explaining that.

4b is the actual doing part - and for the boy's own patrol should be fine. We have 45 boys on our roster and to expect each of them to help the new boy patrol to complete this requirement would mean the new boys would never have the opportunity to do it themselves!

The 4b requirement states "A patrol" it does not specifiy which patrol or that it need be a different patrol than the boy's own.

There are a couple posters here from very small (single patrol) troops. Helping another patrol to complete this requirement might blow them completely out of the water.
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Postby 9009scoutmaster » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:23 am

Mrw. that is the point that we need to stress. Example in our troop we only have 13 youth of which only 10 are what I was consider active. Each of these 10 have a Camping MB blue card open. We divided into 2 patrols in Feb. but on camping trip have only planned as 1 patrol since the most youth that we have had go on a camping trip has been 7. The reason is that on some of these trips, is it fair to the patrol that only has 2 member present on the trip to act as a seperate partol for the camping trip. When we can get a minium of 4 youth from each patrol we will go to 2 patrols for camping trips.
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Postby Mrw » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:33 am

9009scoutmaster wrote:Mrw. that is the point that we need to stress. Example in our troop we only have 13 youth of which only 10 are what I was consider active. Each of these 10 have a Camping MB blue card open. We divided into 2 patrols in Feb. but on camping trip have only planned as 1 patrol since the most youth that we have had go on a camping trip has been 7. The reason is that on some of these trips, is it fair to the patrol that only has 2 member present on the trip to act as a seperate partol for the camping trip. When we can get a minium of 4 youth from each patrol we will go to 2 patrols for camping trips.


Been there, done that! We were down to about 6-7 active at one point several years ago. And the average campout had 4-5 boys.
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Postby FrankJ » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:40 am

4a is for an actual camp out. So it is a bit more than a paper exercise. Although it is not necessarily the only roster. So more than one scout could do this for a single camp out.

While I agree with 4Bs intention, I think it is poorly thought out, without regards to the less than model troop. (I did not say perfect, ideal or better troop). While I am a big believer in nothing added, nothing taken away, this is one that needs to be interpreted with the realities of the troop.

If your troop does a basic skills training camp out, this is a great opportunity to earn this requirement. There is nothing in the requirement that says it has to be one scout per patrol per camp out.

Another possibility would be helping at a Webelos woods.
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Postby 9009scoutmaster » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:45 pm

Thank you FrankJ.

model troop. (I did not say perfect, ideal or better troop)
From WB learned and I strive to have this type troop. As a SM I know that my troop will never be the perfect troop HEY but I feel like I am not doing my job in scouting if I ever stop trying to make my troop into that (model, perfect,ideal or better) Troop.
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Postby FrankJ » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:18 pm

As for "model troop" I was referring specifically to the diagram taught in NYLT & SM training. I was trying to recognize the fact that there are a lot of troops out there that do not meet model for whatever reason, but still are excellent troops. Meeting the goals in scouting is far more important than conforming exactly to a diagram on a piece of paper.
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Postby evmori » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:34 am

4. Do the following:

a. Make a duty roster showing how your patrol is organized for an actual overnight campout. List assignments for each member.
b. Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout, including creating the duty roster, menu planning, equipment needs, general planning, and setting up camp.


The requirements are easy to follow and can be done together. This shouldn't be a hang up regardless of Troop size.
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Postby SM-890 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:16 am

Requirements are requirements. So, as previously stated, 4b can be any patrol. However, as leaders, we should always look for ways to blend requirements with other areas. Try and guide the scout to assist a new scout patrol or Webelos den. This is a side exercise in leadership training and skills. You will probably find that some scouts will step up and some will want to take the easy way out.
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Postby Lynda J » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:56 am

What happens with a Lone Scout on requirements like this?
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Postby SDDan » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:37 pm

I have enjoyed reading the replies to my original post. I have had people both agree and disagree with my original interpretation that the Scout should help either a New Scout Patrol or a Webelos Den. There have been points of view expressed that I had not considered. I had not considered how a small troop or a lone scout would satisfy this requirement.

Within our troop, we start with a New Scout Patrol in February, when most boys bridge to Boy Scouts in our area. Before we go to summer camp, we blend the new Scouts into our 3 existing patrols. This effectively dissolves the New Scout Patrol until the following February. This has worked well for us because it gives us ~ 4 campouts to work with the new Scouts to bring them up to speed. It also gives us some time to get to know the new Scouts before we add them to our other patrols. I felt that these 4 campouts would be an ideal time to satisfy Camping MB 4b and have an experienced Scout work with the new Scouts.

Some people have felt that the wording of “a Scout patrol” does not put any restrictions on whether it is the Scouts own patrol, another patrol in the troop or even a patrol in another troop. I can certainly understand the concern of a small troop try to provide each Scout an opportunity to complete this requirement. I am considering backing-off and allowing Scouts to work with their own patrol.

I wonder what the requirement means by “help”. Does “help” mean provide assistance? Does “help” imply some elements of leadership and/or teaching? Or does “help” merely mean the Scout should participate in the planning process? I felt that “help” should have elements of leadership, teaching and assistance. Which lead me to feeling the working with the New Scout Patrol was an ideal application for this requirement.

It seems to me that merely having a Scout participate in the campout planning process during a patrol breakout session should not satisfy this requirement. This would certainly be an easy way to pass the Scout on this requirement. This is basically what our patrols do prior to every campout, so accepting this as a means of satisfying 4b would make 4b a “gimme” requirement.

Perhaps the middle ground is to allow a Scout to working with his own patrol, but require him to prepare a written campout plan prior to the camp preparation patrol breakout session. Then have the Scout present his proposed plan to the patrol and refine the plan based on the input from the other Scouts in his patrol.


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Re: Camping MB Reqt 4b - Help a patrol ......

Postby scoutaholic » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:50 pm

4. Do the following:
a. Make a duty roster showing how your patrol is organized for an actual overnight campout. List assignments for each member.
b. Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout, including creating the duty roster, menu planning, equipment needs, general planning, and setting up camp.


The requirements don't specify what kind of patrol, or whether it can be your own patrol. It simply says help a patrol plan for a camp. For smaller troops that camp as a single patrol, simply being part of the PLC that plans the camp would fill this requirement. For larger troops, participating in the patrol planning would do it.

Somebody mentioned that this interpretation would make this requirement a 'gimme'. Let's be honest here. Once a boy has done his 20 nights, the rest of the MB is a 'gimme'.
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