When is a Scout Active?

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Postby evmori » Wed May 21, 2008 1:34 pm

smtroop168 wrote:It counts because unfortunately it counts as far as meeting the requirement. And double unfortunately, it doesn't say you have to do it well. Gets back to the "active" discussion.

The positions like historian, bugler and librarian are the ones that drive me crazy as far as PORs counting for S/L/E. I'd rather them add Asst PL since most of them have to fill in for the PL sometimes and display more leadership than the above mentioned.

To answer oldgreybear...they learn that they don't have to do their best to succeed.

OGB...Don't you like civil servants? :lol:


The requirement states "serve actively". And if I'm not mistaken, this is further described in the SM & Boy Scout handbooks.
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Postby OldGreyBear » Wed May 21, 2008 1:55 pm

At times I use hyperbole and stereotypical characterizations to make a point, I mean no one individually disrespect

We talk about facing consequences for our actions. Some seem to think its fine to let a scout alone for 6 months, never comment on what or what not the scout is doing and then deny him credit for the POR. Does that situation sound like the type of adult association that the BSA has listed as a method? To not tell someone they are in danger of losing or not getting credit for something? If the scout is not doing his job, he should not be getting credit for it as he has had ample warning all along and has been removed (fired) from the position. Saying that the scout is alone responsible and the scoutmaster/adults have no responsibility in the matter is shirking the responsibility of being an adult
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Postby Mrw » Wed May 21, 2008 2:03 pm

We have talked to scouts about a need to improve their performance in a position for us to sign that they have completed a POR requirement. And if they boy does not improve with counseling, removing him and appointing someone else is an appropriate consequence. (And a real world type consequence as well.)

We do not re-charter a boy if he has not paid his annual fees. If the troop numbers drop because of it, so be it.

We did have a boy on the roster when my older son crossed over who was on the roster for an additional three years until he turned 18. I personally never met the guy, but his dad kept hoping he could get him to come back and paid the fee each year. When he turned 18, his dad had him fill out an Adult application and we then carried him as an ASM for two more years before dropping him at the next re-charter time. I am pretty sure his dad paid his annual adult fees as well.
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Postby smtroop168 » Wed May 21, 2008 2:34 pm

The point is as an Adult leader you need to take action if the scout is not performing up to his POR duties before you get caught in a box and they appeal on you.

OGB...I'm retired Navy and I thought your analogy was funny (and sad to say I've experienced it)
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Postby evmori » Wed May 21, 2008 2:59 pm

OldGreyBear wrote:At times I use hyperbole and stereotypical characterizations to make a point, I mean no one individually disrespect

We talk about facing consequences for our actions. Some seem to think its fine to let a scout alone for 6 months, never comment on what or what not the scout is doing and then deny him credit for the POR. Does that situation sound like the type of adult association that the BSA has listed as a method? To not tell someone they are in danger of losing or not getting credit for something? If the scout is not doing his job, he should not be getting credit for it as he has had ample warning all along and has been removed (fired) from the position. Saying that the scout is alone responsible and the scoutmaster/adults have no responsibility in the matter is shirking the responsibility of being an adult


I don't think anyone has advocated doing nothing then denying the Scout credit for the POR. I know I haven't.

Our job is to coach & advise the Scout. Removing a Scout from a POR is an option, but not the only one. Leaving the Scout in the position & continuing to coach & advise the Scout is another. To me, removal from a POR is a last resort.
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Postby Scout » Wed May 21, 2008 3:44 pm

Ok scenario for you all. I have a scout living across the street from church where we meet. Last October when our charter came up for renewal, his father came to troop meeting to pay the boy’s registration and summer camp fees. The last time we saw him was COH in September and before that was summer camp. The boy followed my son from Cub Scouts but only shows up at troop meetings the month before summer camp.

Suggestions?
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Postby OldGreyBear » Wed May 21, 2008 3:56 pm

How is his behavior at Summercamp?
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Postby Mrw » Wed May 21, 2008 4:08 pm

Scout wrote:Ok scenario for you all. I have a scout living across the street from church where we meet. Last October when our charter came up for renewal, his father came to troop meeting to pay the boy’s registration and summer camp fees. The last time we saw him was COH in September and before that was summer camp. The boy followed my son from Cub Scouts but only shows up at troop meetings the month before summer camp.

Suggestions?


If he is a nice kid to have around at summer camp, then you just hope he learns something from scouts and let him go.

If he is rotten and disruptive because he is around so little, then you need to sit down with the father and let him know NOW what needs the problem is and that his son needs to come to meetings the next couple months and get with the program or he will not be welcome at summer camp.
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Postby smtroop168 » Wed May 21, 2008 5:20 pm

He likes camp and probably not much else. I had a boy join in 7th grade, went to 2 summer camps but not too many meeting (sports etc). He came up to me at the end of the 2nd summer camp and said that's all the scouting for me. I asked why and he said he wanted to learn how to canoe, row, shoot rifle and shotgun, do archery and wilderness survival and he had had the chance to do those things.

So maybe that's all this boy wants out of scouts and so be it.
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Postby WVBeaver05 » Wed May 21, 2008 9:51 pm

Yes, the requirement does say serve actively. But, remember what the official policy is on "active".

We may not like it, but one of our national trained advancement people explained it this way to me. If you allow a Scout to continue in a POR all of the time counts - period. If his performance is not satisfactory, it is up to the Troop leadership to address the issue(s) and take action. Action up to removal does not stop the clock on time for the POR.

Since I believe in trying to improve sub-par performance -- and that takes time, the first POR (especially if it is the 4 month one) doesn't give much room for removal before they have a chance to improve. But, if I have already had those discussions for one POR (or the POR for one rank), I can be more abrupt (i.e. quicker) on future ones.

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Postby milominderbinder2 » Thu May 22, 2008 2:00 am

As to how to remove someone before recharter, your Unit Commission is trained to walk you through this. If he isn't, that is a problem in your council.

The commissioner's saying is, "whoever hired you, can fire you." That goes for firing an adult as well.

You really want the Charter Organization behind you on this because your COR can overturn anything you do and then fire you. Unless you have a real threat, wait for recharter.

So here is how to remove a Boy Scout midterm...

Call your registrar to verify how your council does it as each is independent. It is supposed to work like this.

The unit leader writes a single sentence letter to the registrar:

"Please remove ____, DOB: ____, from the membership role of ____ ___."

You do not give any reason as none is required, just as none is required when you signed him up.

The sad part about this is that the same leader who has signed his name for the past two years on the recharters claiming this Life Scout was active now calls the Council Advancement Chair claiming the boy was inactive now that he realizes the boy is actually going to do the project.

So which time was the lie?

Or they even sign the Eagle App but then send you a P & C letter saying the boy was really not active.

Set your definition of active as high as you want but have the courage to live by your own words. If they are not active they cannot be rechartered. We have no provision for honorary youth members.

How can membership effect a council? Your council should be applying for state and federal grants. They invariably require a certification of membership. In addition, if the United Way has not pulled your plug, they and many other key supporters require membership certifications as well.

Scouts don't always listen to us but they watch everything we do.

A Scout is trustworthy...

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Postby evmori » Thu May 22, 2008 7:20 am

WVBeaver05 wrote:Yes, the requirement does say serve actively. But, remember what the official policy is on "active".

We may not like it, but one of our national trained advancement people explained it this way to me. If you allow a Scout to continue in a POR all of the time counts - period. If his performance is not satisfactory, it is up to the Troop leadership to address the issue(s) and take action. Action up to removal does not stop the clock on time for the POR.

Since I believe in trying to improve sub-par performance -- and that takes time, the first POR (especially if it is the 4 month one) doesn't give much room for removal before they have a chance to improve. But, if I have already had those discussions for one POR (or the POR for one rank), I can be more abrupt (i.e. quicker) on future ones.

YiS


To be a youth member, a Scout must be active. For a POR, a Scout must serve actively. Totally different.

If you allow a Scout to continue in a POR & he does a terrible job yes the time counts. But how the job POR was done is just as important. Doin' the time ain't enough.
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Postby smtroop168 » Thu May 22, 2008 7:48 am

The simple solution is to change requirement 1 for S/L/E from "active" to Registered". Then serving "actively" can be better judged.

There is no requirement to be active to make T/2/1.

See my CSE for a day post.
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Postby evmori » Thu May 22, 2008 8:21 am

smtroop168 wrote:The simple solution is to change requirement 1 for S/L/E from "active" to Registered". Then serving "actively" can be better judged.

There is no requirement to be active to make T/2/1.

See my CSE for a day post.


I feel active should be better defined instead of dumbing down something else.

A Scout must be "active" to be a member so in essence, a Scout must be "active" to earn a rank. Can't earn a rank unless one is a member!
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Postby smtroop168 » Thu May 22, 2008 8:34 am

I agree with you but I was trying to split the "breathing" requirement to actually perfoming in the POR and if we use the same word we are stuck with the "body count" BSA rule.

The point on T/2/1 is that the requirements are mute. The T/2/1 used to have time in grade requirements until they let them work on all three ranks at once. Anyone know why they did this? The closest thing to "active" is the number of activities (5 and 10) requirement for 2/1.
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Postby FrankJ » Thu May 22, 2008 9:32 am

Changing the requirement from active to registered is pointless because you cannot advance an unregistered scout. The term "active" should be defined as something meaningfull, or the requirement dropped completely.

On the other hand, If Active=registered, how do you drop a scout for being inactive if he is registered?
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Postby smtroop168 » Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 am

That's the problem now Active does equal Registered. Got a better word to give some separation between the active breathing requirement and the active POR requirement?

An unregistered scout wouldn't show up to advance. :)
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Postby OldGreyBear » Thu May 22, 2008 11:18 am

There are times when I wonder what the issue is. if a scout is not "active" how does he move from Tenderfoot to First Class? There are events to attend, knots to learn, food to cook and tents to pitch and sleep in. If the scout completes the requirements, then he must have been active in some manner.

For Star to Life, there are merit badges to earn and POR's to complete. If the scout is not performing up to par, then there should be scoutmaster conferences on specifics and the scout needs to be apprised of what he is doing "wrong" and what needs to be done to make it right. Ed brings up an interesting point. if the scout is struggling with the quartermaster position and he finally "gets it" at the 5 month mark, its really not fair to those Scouts who were doing their job from say one to let the Quartermaster serve one month at the level of performance you wanted for 6 months. Now, if you let the youth continue to serve, he could get his 6 months in and then he has the time requirement in and that is that according to what I and others have said.

I think to be fair to all involved, if the scoutmaster wants the youth to serve past the six months mark, perhaps to 10 months before signing off on the youth's POR, I think a simple note of documentation would be good. Just somehting like a letter or a memo spelling out that the youth is expected to serve until some specified date at a specified level of performance to get credit for the POR. Both Scoutmaster and Scout sign and you have an agreement. This process is very similar to the process to be followed when a scout does not complete a Board of Review. A letter is sent to the scout outlining the actions needed before the next BOR which is scheduled in the letter.
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Postby smtroop168 » Thu May 22, 2008 11:31 am

OGB...he doesn't advance if he doesn't actively participate in troop activities (including campouts). The point I was poorly making is that active is not a specific requirement for T/2/1 as it is for S/L/E. It used to be when I was a scout but when they allowed all 3 early ranks to be worked on simultaneously, it was deleted. I think it was one/one/two months in grade. Anyone remember when it was changed to allow a scout to work all 3 at the same time?
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Postby Mrw » Thu May 22, 2008 12:41 pm

smtroop168 wrote: Anyone remember when it was changed to allow a scout to work all 3 at the same time?


Sometime before my now 22 year old crossed over.
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