Guide to advancement

This is to be used when something does not fit in any of the Other Forums

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby FrankJ » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:55 am

The OA is touted as the Scouting Honor Society. There should be standards more than nights spent outside. Granted it is more of a popularity vote but... In the election guide lines:

4. Have these requirements certified by the Scoutmaster, and be given a general endorsement of the
candidate’s Scout Spirit by the Scoutmaster, BEFORE the election is conducted.

Looks like scout spirit to me. :)

Once again I am not defending the troop in Jerry's post. Defining active on participation on a specific event is short sighted at best.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:05 am

Don't disagree. Mine was off the OA web site. http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/oabasicinfo.htm
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Guide to advancement - off topic OA

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:44 am

Also off the National OA web site -

http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/GOA-2010.pdf

The 2010 Guide for Officers and Advisers - Page 20 - Membership Requirements -

"Unit leader approval. To become eligible for election, a
Boy Scout or Varsity Scout must be registered with the Boy
Scouts of America and have the approval of his unit leader
prior to the election. The unit leader must certify his
Scout spirit (i.e., his adherence to the Scout Oath and Law
and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader
must also certify that the nominee meets all specified
requirements at the time of this annual election"

Page 22 - Unit Elections -

"A Boy Scout or Varsity Scout who carries a current
national membership card and participates in at least
some unit activities during the year is considered to be a
registered active member of the unit. For example, a
youth away at college who participates in some unit activities
when home, such as a campout, camporee, or occasional
unit meeting, should be considered a registered
active member."


Adding two eligible youth to the ballot should have no affect on who, or how many, youth are elected. All that is needed is votes on 50% of the returned ballots, and the boys can vote for as many candidates as they wish.
Nuts4Scouts
Eagle
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:17 am
Location: Des Plaines Valley

Re: Guide to advancement - off topic OA

Postby wagionvigil » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:23 pm

Nuts4Scouts wrote:Also off the National OA web site -

http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/GOA-2010.pdf

The 2010 Guide for Officers and Advisers - Page 20 - Membership Requirements -

"Unit leader approval. To become eligible for election, a
Boy Scout or Varsity Scout must be registered with the Boy
Scouts of America and have the approval of his unit leader
prior to the election. The unit leader must certify his
Scout spirit (i.e., his adherence to the Scout Oath and Law
and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader
must also certify that the nominee meets all specified
requirements at the time of this annual election"

Page 22 - Unit Elections -

"A Boy Scout or Varsity Scout who carries a current
national membership card and participates in at least
some unit activities during the year is considered to be a
registered active member of the unit. For example, a
youth away at college who participates in some unit activities
when home, such as a campout, camporee, or occasional
unit meeting, should be considered a registered
active member."


Adding two eligible youth to the ballot should have no affect on who, or how many, youth are elected. All that is needed is votes on 50% of the returned ballots, and the boys can vote for as many candidates as they wish.

This was before the change in elections that happened in the late 90's early 2000's
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:15 am

Another example of the same web site providing two different answers to the same question.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby Fred Johnson » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:11 pm

smtroop168 wrote:About 30 days or so.


Nine days or so.... tick. tick. tick.
Fred Johnson
Life
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 5:45 pm

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:19 pm

Fred...we have decided to assign you the task of giving us all a full briefing once the book comes out. :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby Fred Johnson » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:04 am

The only thing I can brief is a large set of questions.

I still remember being burnt a few years ago after my 2nd son joined a very young troop. I tried to influence a few small advancement practices. Not huge issues (debates on denying a POR credit to a troop guide they didn't think did enough, 40 min BORs for 1st class, ...). I was promoting what I understood to be the BSA policies. I had the relatively new 2010 (??) ACPP pub 33088 and had given away my older 2009 (?? - not 100% sure on year) ACPP to a scout parent in my 1st son's troop who was dealing with advancement for his significantly autistic / disabled son.

At a committee meeting for the young troop, I said I'd get a couple of copies so we could review / discuss the issues at the next committee meeting. I went to the scout shop and learned all the copies had been pulled and they had no idea when the new copies would be available. (That feels like over two years ago though it's probably slightly less.)

So my only ACPP copy was the one that BSA pulled back and wouldn't sell anymore. I had no idea what part of that new copy was of concern and/or invalid. There was no BSA statement that the previous copy was to be considered effective. AND, the previous copy was not published or available for purchase. So essentially BSA left us without an ACPP for near two years.

Now, ... if you are smart ..., you can find the PDF of the 2009 pub 33088 at scouting.org. Back then, I could not find it anywhere or any BSA statement about it.

It really took the wind out of the sails to get things changed. I'm really sort of miffed at the situation still, as I'm sure everyone can tell.

The only relief is that the scout store staff are just as miffed at the situation. According to them, this is not the 1st time BSA has done this with a key document. Their position now (at least they say) is that they won't pull documents off the shelves unless they have a new version to replace them.
Fred Johnson
Life
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 5:45 pm

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:44 pm

Fred...the 2008 (current) version would have answered all the your questions you list. The 2009 version didn't change really that much anyway. The 2008 version has been available on the internet all along. Also your District Adv Comm should have been able to provide you info or come to your meeting and provide training.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby Fred Johnson » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:42 am

Agreed and that's how I've dealt with many things for the last few years. Also, I've easily found PDFs of most of the BSA publications available through non-BSA sources. And, I've compared my paper 2010 ACPP against previous versions. Not that much changed.

BUT ... try to find an official BSA answer on the ACPP status or find an official BSA copy.. It's darn near impossible. It's like it just fell off the side of the earth. To the best of what I've found, BSA never says the PDF is available online or that it's current or anything else about it. In fact, the only reference I've found is on an advancement reference page and a FAQ web page I've used repeatedly. It has links to other PDFs of BSA publications, but NOT to the ACPP pub.

REF - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/resources.aspx
FAQ - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx

When I search scouting.org for "advancement committee policies and procedures" or "acpp", scouting.org responds with "Server Error in '/' Application. " Now that I know to use Google and search for it using "site:scouting.org" I've found it. BUT if BSA does not link to it's own document in the earlier web pages, how do I know it's current or just another part of the BSA site that's dead, out-of-date or accidentally left there or left there for another reason.


People? You recommended asking the district advancement person. My experience with asking individuals is hit and miss. In scouting as in life, it's common to ask three different people and get three significantly different answers. I've learned that a few select people including a few at the local scout shop are usually right. Our previous district advancement person (replaced ten months ago) was promoting their own troop flavor of advancement for everyone. I'm always sad to think of the number of kids that probably gave up on earning Eagle because of obstacles that were added. (no response for months, extra documents requested, review/change request approval cycles of five or more times taking months to complete, pigeon holing scouts he didn't think were worthy of eagle)

Heck, I just heard our council president speak this weekend. He joked about something that I looked over at a fellow leader and asked if he heard what I heard. He did and we both agreed that what was said is pretty much a no-no in scouting today. (but that's a very different topic)

Anyway, looking forward to an official document in the next week or so.
Fred Johnson
Life
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 5:45 pm

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:00 pm

"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby Quailman » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:40 pm

The Cardinals eliminated the Phillies earlier this evening, and now this!!! My day can't get any better!
Quailman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:52 am
Location: Sam Houston Area Council, Spring, TX

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby Reasonable Rascal » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:23 am

I bow to greatness. :wink:

RR
Boys can save lives when Scouting first saves them.
Reasonable Rascal
Star
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:28 am
Location: Bullhead City - Las Vegas Area Council

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby eaglescout92 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:27 am

Very Nice Thank You!!
Craig K.
Eagle: May 1992 Troop 2 Lewistown PA
1992-1995 Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 2 Lewistown PA
1995-1997 Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 454 Langley AFB
1998-2000 Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 135 Hickam AFB
2011- ??? Assistant Den leader Den 4 Pack 1875
eaglescout92
Tenderfoot
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:43 am
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:01 pm

Wonderful!

Now, when does the online version go up?

The book states "after publication". Does that mean this is just a preliminary copy, and has not been published for the masses yet?
Nuts4Scouts
Eagle
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:17 am
Location: Des Plaines Valley

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby FrankJ » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:21 pm

Interesting tid bits. Common sense is actually mentioned in the GTA. So are we acknowledging that common sense is a skill set BSA leaders are expected to use?

Eagle project leaders & project reviewers are going to have to study child labor laws to know what jobs the youth will be allowed to do. Strictly speaking most jobs involving power tools will be out.

Nice change to active & POR definitions.

Looks like a lot of hard work by a lot of dedicated people.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby kwildman » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:31 pm

so is this the new standard? Is it officially out now?

thanks for the document.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:09 pm

kwildman wrote:so is this the new standard? Is it officially out now?

thanks for the document.


Yes

FrankJ wrote:Interesting tid bits. Common sense is actually mentioned in the GTA. So are we acknowledging that common sense is a skill set BSA leaders are expected to use?

Eagle project leaders & project reviewers are going to have to study child labor laws to know what jobs the youth will be allowed to do. Strictly speaking most jobs involving power tools will be out.

Nice change to active & POR definitions.

Looks like a lot of hard work by a lot of dedicated people.


We did it all while riding a Tandem!!!
Nuts4Scouts wrote:Wonderful!

Now, when does the online version go up?

The book states "after publication". Does that mean this is just a preliminary copy, and has not been published for the masses yet?

No..it's out in mass distro to all Council Execs
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:30 pm

You guys are pretty dormant on this so far. The posters on other forums are more vocal. I'm amazed at the unkind, unhelpful, unfriendly, and discourteous comments--and these are probably some of the same Scouters who will quickly accuse others of not following the Scout Law. These people have no business being involved in Scouting and setting examples for our youth.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Guide to advancement

Postby agdparker » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:07 pm

smtroop168 wrote:You guys are pretty dormant on this so far. The posters on other forums are more vocal. I'm amazed at the unkind, unhelpful, unfriendly, and discourteous comments--and these are probably some of the same Scouters who will quickly accuse others of not following the Scout Law. These people have no business being involved in Scouting and setting examples for our youth.
I've read through about half of it, but it seems like a solid effort to clean up some common issues. The new section on participation is great and I was very impressed with how it was handled. As others have mentioned, I do fear what some people may consider "reasonable", but I understand why it was done. The layout is nice and it's a good read thus far.

My thanks to you and those that worked so hard on this. You guys broached some difficult subjects and I don't envy the effort it took to get this new version out.
agdparker
Star
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:12 pm
Location: Greater Yosemite Council CA

PreviousNext

Return to General Advancement Information

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests