Award Medals vs. Knots

All non-advancement related awards and recognitions. (Anything except Ranks, Merit Badges, and Palms.)

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Award Medals vs. Knots

Postby ThunderingWind » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:25 am

I finally got the medal version of the Venture Leader's Training Award. I might need it for a formal COH this summer.

When I was putting the paperwork back in my Leader's Book, I read over the requirements for the Training Award and the Webelos Den Leader Knot I had just received.

They are basically the same. The only real difference is the one is Cub level and the other Crew level.

So my question is this: Why are the Scout and Crew level awards available with a medal and Cub level awards only available in knot form?

One has to meet the same general requirements of Training for the position, Tenure in the position, Round Table participation and actual participation in the position.

I would think they should all use the same knot and medal plus the cub, Scout, Crew or Versity device (one can be made for Webelos specific) or they Den Leader awards get a separate medal.
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Postby wagionvigil » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:28 am

Many of the Cub Awards have Medallions that you wear around your neck Much like the SIlver Beaver Award
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Postby ThunderingWind » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:30 am

I do understand the costs of development of the medals. So I thought of a solution if the BSA were to make a new medal for the Den Leaders.

Using the colors found on the knot as a basis for the hanging ribbon of the medal. Use the same gold dangle currenty used for the Scout Leader and Venture Leader Training award.

Or to keep costs down even more, just produce a small Tiger pin and Webelos pin similar to the Venture pin used to designate what program was used to earn the award and keep the current knot and medal as the SLTA and VLTA.

Then the Tiger Den, Cub Den and Webelos Denleader knots would be retired and replaced by the same one used for the Scouts and Crews.
Last edited by ThunderingWind on Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Medallions

Postby riverwalk » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:52 pm

You can still find the Awards on ebay, for big bucks. Remember, the knot is "knot" an Award, but only represents it. They discontinued the neck pieces due to costs. Shame too, as they are very neat visual Award items.
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Uniform Looks

Postby ThunderingWind » Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:24 pm

Being from a military background, I do not like the looks of wearing one medal and one knot. They should be the same.

If one was to have worked the training ticket and moved up with one's son, wear all those neck things could get heavy. And it looks cluttered.

Thus my question.

I know the knot only represents the award. But I was just wondering if there was a way to make the display look better for those ultra formal Scouting events when wearing the medal is prefered over wearing knots.

There should also be miniture versions to wear when wearing the Scout blazer, shirt and tie.
Last edited by ThunderingWind on Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Versions

Postby riverwalk » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:09 pm

There have been some over the years, and they can be found as well (and pricey). One can wear the dress blazer if they don't want a cluttered uniform. Your point of cluttered is well taken, and BSA advises against this (get the Guide). But the neckwear is only for dress events anyway. If one has been honored enough to have multiple neck devices, they could choose which ones to wear and therefore not be cluttered.

One difference you know as compared to Military, is that BSA says the wearer should wear the knots in the order they prefer. You've seen all the comments about how some of us don't even wear the knots. I only wear them on my Cub Scouter shirts, not Boy Scout or District shirts usually. Sometimes I do wear the medals, and it does generate questions from others. And sometimes this is my purpose.

One of my current Scouters is working to get more knot recognition, and I try to remind him that there are some knots BSA wants you to qualify for, then others are bestowed on you by others. So I engineer him into getting the work done for the youth, then the award will come naturally. :wink:
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Re: Versions

Postby ThunderingWind » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:25 pm

riverwalk wrote:One of my current Scouters is working to get more knot recognition, and I try to remind him that there are some knots BSA wants you to qualify for, then others are bestowed on you by others. So I engineer him into getting the work done for the youth, then the award will come naturally. :wink:


I have met these people before. In my own world, I look at what my Scouting position requirements are and go forth with training and attending Round Tables as much as I can. If it happens to get a ticket punch, then OK, that is just exta gravy for desert!

I have taken the active role in our organization to see that even if the adults are not "actively" tracking their progress, that it does get recorded and they are properly recognized for their efforts. I have seen many adults surprised at these COHs and their name is called.

I see value in more public recognition of all our volunteers.
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Re: Versions

Postby WVBeaver05 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:29 pm

riverwalk wrote:One difference you know as compared to Military, is that BSA says the wearer should wear the knots in the order they prefer. You've seen all the comments about how some of us don't even wear the knots. I only wear them on my Cub Scouter shirts, not Boy Scout or District shirts usually. Sometimes I do wear the medals, and it does generate questions from others. And sometimes this is my purpose.

I have noticed that Cub Scouts are more likely to notice and ask about knots on a leader uniform. But, Boy Scouts do notice a change. One of the things that I like about the knots more than recognizing the adult is that they do open a conversation with Youth who ask about them. And it allows leaders to demonstrate "advancement" -- i.e. setting an example.

I just received a new knot last weekend (District Award of Merit) and should get my Scouter's Training Award any time now. However, I will be getting several new Scouts over the next few weeks so I plan to wait a while to add the knots to the uniform so (hopefully) they will notice and ask which will provide an opportunity to discuss/teach.

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Knots

Postby riverwalk » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:14 pm

The Scouters that ask about mine, are Boy Scout leaders that weren't in Cub Scouting. We spend such effort getting Cub Scouters trained (where they learn about recognition), that I see the Boy Scout side behind in training. There units seem to focus on Scoutmaster training and outdoor requirements. Meaning that a new Scouter that doesn't attend those specifics, is lacking an awareness of these other things. And if they don't attend Roundtable, they don't see others receive an Award. I know leaders right now that have done everything for a recognition, EXCEPT going to Roundtable or University or Training. All they need do, is do what their position expects of them, then apply for the Award.

And I agree we have to look out for any Scouter not following their progress record. Some aren't interested in progress towards recognition. That's commendable and understandable. The different case however is where an individual would appreciate the recognition, yet doesn't know about these progress requirements. If any Unit fails to promote training for their leadership, the problem is bigger than any one recognition being overlooked I think.
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Postby mt_goodrich » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:41 pm

I think it is a good idea for Scouters to wear knots they are entitled to or earned. To me, it demonstrates that they have taken the time and effort to be trained or go above and beyond.
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Re: Award Medals vs. Knots

Postby mhjacobson » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:54 pm

Use the same gold dangle currenty used for the Scout Leader and Venture Leader Training award.
Actually the dangle is different for each of the scouting programs. There were a few reasons why BSA dropped the CS medal program:

1. the new medals were not as well received as the old ones
2. the new medals were more expensive than the old ones
3. almost no one purchased the new medals

In fact almost no one was purchasing any of the medals. When I first joined scouting as a leader (in the late '60's), the certificate, medal and knot were awarded to the leader. At some point in time, I can not remember when, BSA shifted to only awarding the knot. For a time, leaders purchased the medals so that they could be like the other leaders at formal events, but that started slowing down. Finally BSA noted that few medals were being sold.

The next problem with CS is the fact that they change positions almost yearly. That means that there is the opportunity to earn a total of 6 CS knots (as compared to the usual two in Boy Scouts, if you do not count the distinguished SM). 6 knots starts to translate to a lot of $$ in terms of medals (and you can not wear 6 medals at a time). And those medals are heavy. When I dress up, I usually only wear two (max 3) neck medals at a time due to the weight and the fact that they ring as they strike each other.

Long explanation as to why the CS medals only exist, but I thought that the history might be helpful.
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